By Tiya Cunningham-Sumter
Over the years I have heard wives express concern for their husband’s leadership skills. They will often admit they allow their better halves to take the lead and he just won’t step up to take the wheel. Of course it causes certain frustrations and results in the wife pulling back her willingness to allow her husband to lead.
I have found that the wife comes to the point she no longer trusts her husband to take charge. And husbands eventually find themselves in a battle for the “Head of Household” title. It also becomes a lot more challenging for a wife to submit to a husband she does not trust to lead. And here is where many couples struggle.
In our communities and as Christians we are taught about submission and the “roles” of husbands as well as wives. While most of us try to adhere to those “roles” many more of us are going against the grain and our households are out of order. Some wives are wearing “the pants” (so to speak) and many husbands are passively taking a step back. However, certain things are just in our nature. Men are born to lead. They are to wear the crown, sit on a throne and be the king of the castle. Women are nurturers, we love being able to take care of and support (emotionally) our families. So if this is the nature and order of things, what’s getting in our way?
A husband is unable to lead if he is not consistently given the opportunity. Consistency may be difficult if there have been previous errors in leadership. How do we excel in any given situation but by practice? Wives, if you believe that your husband always has the best intentions for his family and will not purposely make decisions that will cause irreparable damage, let go and follow. This is especially important for those marriages that may be troubled with leadership tug-of-war.
With two people in a marriage and many duties, including childcare, household and finances, it makes sense to divide the roles. Although there is a clear leader, in many organizations for example, there are support positions that make sure each department runs smoothly. A good leader always needs those necessary people in place to keep the ship afloat i.e. the wife. For those wives who are holding on to the idea of being captain, please know that it is okay to trust your husband’s guidance. Allow yourself to be comforted in the fact that the ship will not sail without you.
How does submission and\or leadership work in your marriage?
Tiya Cunningham-Sumter is a Certified Life & Relationship Coach, Founder of Life Editing and creator of The Black Wives’ Club. Tiya resides in Chicago with her husband and two children.
It’s funny I was just thinking about this. Because I was a single parent before I got married and had to take on the “Head of the Household” role. It was very hard for me to play a “submissive” role when I got married. There seemed to be a power struggle in the beginning but with a lot of prayer and effort ..things are working out.
I am a work in progress on this one. I realize that someone has to drive the car, and it should be him, but I am really opinionated! Sometimes I think he doesn’t look at the long term consequences of his decisions, other times I just want my way. With much prayer and study on forums such as this, I am getting better.
I don’t think relationships of mutual consent, love, and devotion even require a leader at all. Think of your best friend. Is there a leader in that relationship? Usually not. There are times you may take the lead in a given circumstance and vice versa. My point is I think couples decide together what the aims and goals of their marriage and family are. And there will be times when each will take a more leadership role but it in no way should mean anyone “pulling back” because there are set rules that say a man is the leader. Each relationship is different and each couple needs to determine how it will work best for them. Maybe the marital issues is someone always trying to be in charge instead of couples learning to work together with mutual respect and love.
I respectfully disagree on this one. I do not think that all men are born leaders, nor should all men be given that title. Leading takes a lot of skill and self-assurance. Unfortunately, that is lacking in a lot of todays men, particularly in the black community. I think that, to say that a man is a natural born leader, is to say that a woman without a man in her life is left without a shield. And that just wouldnt be fair. There are plenty of women who are leading their households because some man left them high and dry. If men were truly the leaders that we want them to be, there wouldnt be so many men doing this. If it is inherent that a man is a leader, then it means that each man would find a woman to follow his lead. Our population just doesnt leave room for an equal match of one man for every woman.
I personally have problems with this because I am a very strong willed woman. I am a natural born leader. My husband is a leader as well. We complement each others skills—where he lacks, I make up for it and vice versa.
Plus, a leader needs followers. Again, too many men in the black community are leaVing, not leaDing.
“I think that, to say that a man is a natural born leader, is to say that a woman without a man in her life is left without a shield. ”
The state of our community proves this statement true. There is no male shield, look at it from the Lions perspective, the lioness leads when it comes to hunting, but the main protector of the food from other male lions, hyennas, etc. is the male Lion. Without enough male lions in the pride, taking that shield position they would face constant attacks from outsiders. Our community has not had enough, henceforth our families have faced constant attacks.
I absolutely agree with Alciniaf. The focus shouldn’t have to be whether there is a leader or not, but a mutual respect, love and admiration. Designating a leader immediately implies there are followers. And what are we following? There are men out here who would LEAD their women to the poor house, jail and more!!
I consider myself the leader of my household and with that I take responsibility. That doesn’t mean I think less of my wife or that she’s not capable etc… What it means to me is that I hold myself accountable for what happens to my family.
Cheryl,
This is so common. But as his helpmate it is okay for you to gently encourage him in those areas where he may not be as strong. Sometimes that driver does get sleepy and that passenger may have to fill in at those times, :0)
I agree with no pulling back and that each couple is different and has to do what works best for them. The marriages I have seen struggle with this issue is usually due to the husband feeling that he isn’t trusted to make decisions for his family. Marriage is a partnership, and I encourage wives to help in the decision making process for the family, but also be willing to take on that support role as well.
Thank you for your comment Miko. Love your feedback. In our communities we do have men that don’t lead, but we also have so many that aren’t encouraged or taught to lead. The majority of them have the potential to lead, but there is no one there to push. I am definitely not saying that a woman without a man is left without a shield. I agree, I do know plenty of women who are forced to be the leader in their household, but I am not sure that they would have preferred it that way. Women also have to take responsibility for our choices as well.
Tee, I am happy to hear that!
I personally suspect that men are not leading because they are not raised to be leaders. They don’t have the right examples and they are not empowered by their parents, elders, and role models to take on the mantle of leadership. At the same time I know plenty of men who are ready and prepared to lead but who continually encounter women who do not have what it takes to submit to them. Finally, when a woman submits that is not to say that she does not complement her mate. On the contrary, she submits to his leadership and he accepts her guidance. That is divine balance.
I actually find myself agreeing a little bit with Ms. Lee, you must EARN whatever respect you want in life, be it at work, at school, with family/friends, and ESPECIALLY with your spouse and your children. I, for one, am the “boss” in my household, not because I say that I am, but rather because my wife has “allowed” me to have that title. I believe part of that reason is that I have earned my stripes over the course of our relationship, and in many instances will admit my faults and areas in which I am not the best “leader”. Perfect example is finances, which I suck at, so she handles the money in the house. But rest assured I pretty much handle everything else 🙂 Since I was laid-off a year and a half ago I have become Mr. Mom for my two children and my wife and run this household better than Steve Jobs runs Apple. I, like Mr. Tyler, take this job (yes, I said JOB!) seriously and hold myself accountable for what happens in my house. Like Ms. Lee, my wife is a VERY accomplished business executive and while she would like to spend more time with us at home, one of the things that makes her life much easier and less stress free is that she knows Daddy is on the case 24/7/365 🙂 Again, I earned this and don’t take any of it lightly!
Oh, sorry gotta go and get the laundry folded and dinner started before my daughter wakes up and we have to go pick up my son from school! LOL 🙂
In a realtionship between man/ woman , dating or married ones must have a mutual respect love and understanding of what’s the ultimate goal of the realtionship..THERE’S NO LEADER JUST TWO PEOPLE WHO CARE ENOUGH TO STAY TRUE TO THERE COMITTMENT AND COMITTED TO MAKING IT WORK FOR THE OVER ALL HEALTH OF THE FAMILY OR REALATIONSHIP. No matter what happens if someone cheats, loose a job or drop the ball some where along the line in the realtionship they have to effectivly communicate “GET ALL THE FEELINGS OUT IN OPEN ” make a profound decision of where the realtionship will go from there ..Is it worth staying and working out ..or..Separate for the best of the two or family..Once the decision is made “LET IT GO”.
In the end the final decision is between the ones in the realtionship. But if woman/man would not hold on the baggage they would find themselves open to a “Worthwhile Realtionship” and understand things happen “It’s called LIFE” no one is to good for anything to happen to them as long as you live ..JUST REMEBER IN ORDER TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL REALATIONSHIP EACH PARTY HAVE TO BE IN A HEATLY STATE..MIND,BODY AND SPIRIT!
I agree with Alciniaf.
Compromise is the key component in a relationship. A relationship is built on compromise, cooperation, support (emotional/physical/spiritual/financial and whatever else that applies)
A couple has each other’s back and work together to bring out the best of each other for the good of the relationship. This might mean that if the woman is better at managing finances, she takes the lead at that. If the man is better with childcare, he takes the lead in that.
I don’t think there should be pre-set roles determined by a religion or by society. Each couple should think and do for themselves based on the dynamics of how ‘their particular relationship works instead of what ‘outsider’s think.
The notion of leadership in a relationship to me is detrimental because to me a relationship is about ‘teamwork’ not ‘follow the leader based on ‘societal pre-set gender roles. Leadership is ‘earned’ not given and perhaps work in a corporate setting, and even then a person doesn’t attain leadership just because of their gender, they have a track record that ‘show’s they have the skillset it takes to ‘run’ the organization.
However personal relationships are not corporations. Marriages/relationships are living breathing ‘organisms that are fluid/changeable/flexible. Rigid rules causes unecessary strife.
Couples should work together to support each other and the relationship, this means doing what needs to be done and both taking an active role in keeping the relationship successful. Instead of getting caught up in ‘who gets to be the boss.
Interesting comments. Personally, I think there needs to be a leader. And by that I mean someone who takes ultimate responsibility for the direction and well being of the family. Does it have to be the man? No. Still I question some of the sentiment I read in these comments. Since other posters are reading their personal experiences into this question I guess I will do the same. From what I have observed and experienced there are many women who will not respect a man that does not step up and take the lead. All the talk about partnerships and no leader being needed sound good in theory. However, in practice I have found that a man who does not take the leadership role in his relationship and his family will eventually lose the respect and honor of his wife. She may even come to resent him.
So while I am not dismissing the comments there does seem to be a disconnect somewhere. Often times the very same women who dont want to submit will complain about their significant other not “being a man.†I have seen it happen too many times.
There are many men who are not ready to lead families. But if we are going to be real we need to admit there are many women are not ready to lead either. Just because you become the leader by default doesnt mean you are competent at it. I would argue that both black men and black women need to become better at leading. More importantly, we need to become better at being interdependent on one another.
This one is personal for me. I found this one very interesting. Before I was married and in the early stages I held on to the image of a strong woman being one who is in charge of her own life and I resented the implications of ‘submit’. As time went I found that as T. Rogers said I became dissatisfied with always being the one’ in charge’ and making the tough decisions and I came to realize that sink or swim our marriage functioned better if he took the lead. I felt more secure and safe because I fully believed that he had the best interests of our family at heart. It was quite a turnaround for me and really an eye opener! I did learn that my husband as leader does not mean that I am a mindless follower, he listens to my input and the decisions are made together. The mark of a good leader is that no one on the team feels that they are being forced or told to do something that they would not have done themselves. Leader is not the same as dictator!
On a final note we are a military family which means that I often have to pick up the leadership role when he is not around and I am always relieved when he is back in charge. 🙂
Nice comment T. Rogers
I was in a relationship where I felt like the man because he didn’t have the backbone to lead.
I do think that black people are overly submissive which is why we don’t achieve as well as we could in society. Nonblack marriages aren’t based on submission and leadership. I think submitting is an outdated out moded way to run a marriage and this is based on bible talk.
My fiance and I will be married next May, he is not black. In his household, both his parents were professionals who partnered together to make their family successful. He is one of 4 siblings all successful. At one point, his father suffered an illness and had to take a leave from work and because their marriage was built on ‘teamwork’ not Me leader, you follower, the marriage and family rolled right along.
My family was steeped in tradition and religious teachings. My father expected to have the final say in everything, even if he didn’t even know anything, but this is how things were done. I learned based on my parents marriage that this is not the mode that I wanted. My mother even encouraged me to not have the type of marriage that she did.
I look forward to sharing my life with my soon to be hubby and we will use his parent’s marriage as our role model. They’ve been married nearly 30 years.
Black people submit to white people too much, but not to each other at all. The same black women who refuse leadership of men in the home go to work and take orders from those outside our community and are proud to do it everyday. The man you are marrying is not black, but I’m willing to bet that you are submissive to a certain extent to him or else marriage would not occur. Every man needs to feel like the leader of his home at some point,sit down with your fiances mom and I’ll bet she’ll tell you that submission to each other was huge over their 30 year period. Is it easier for you to except his leadership because white men in general are put on a pedistal as far as leadership is concerned in our society? That’s just a question, please don’t be offended I’m just curious.
T. Rogers hit the nail on the head. If you all don’t believe the Bible at least believe evolution. A woman’s basic instinct is to seek out leadership skills in a mate. Many thousands of years of programming have made this what it is. A man who will not lead will not be respected…..PERIOD!
I personally agree with this statement. Growing up in a Christian household has taught me that God’s original plan was for men to be leaders, and women were to be the leaders support system. My First Lady told me that she has no problem submitting to her husband because while he is the head of the union, she is the body and he can go no where without her. While men as the head has the vision of the household and the direction it should be going, the wife as the body must first agree with said direction and get them there together. However in households where the husband/father figure is absent, the woman must take on both roles for her survival as well as that of herchildren. Male children who see their mothers captain and crew of the household then grow up to believe that this is the role of all women, no matter how many times they hear the contrary when they become adults. The battle begins when the woman who has been taught to submit marries the man who was never told what his role in the marriage is supposed to be. She’s frustrated because it seems like he’s trying to shy away from his duties, and he’s confused because he doesn’t know what his duties are to begin with, much less execute them.
Interesting Post. Not sure how I feel. Any one person in a marriage does not know how to lead in all aspects with all it takes to run a household. I am not going to cut the grass, start a bbq fire, I will take out the trash, but my husband does that. I am not going to wash everyones laundry. I am not going to pay all the bills, nor expect my husband to. I am not going to tell my husband how to build a picinic table, or put up a 6 ft privacy fence. Women work outside the home. Why should I give my husband my hard earned money and vice versa to dictate where it will be spent? I don’t mind paying for date night or my husband driving us in my car, that I paid for when we go out. Letting a man lead is difficult for many women. I don’t expect my husband to wash my car, just because he is to be the leader. My husband is not my father whom I had to answer to as a child. My husband is my friend and my partner. We work together. In my marriage “we are equal people. I need him for what he brings to the table and him for what I bring. We compliment/balance each other. I don’t know everything(yea I know, some are shocked)LOL. My husband does not know everything, together we make a great team.
What a great topic. As more and more Black men are finding themselves working from home, making career changes or just being laid off, I hear about the lack of male leadership more often. A huge problem I see is when you have been raised in a Christian environment and part of the expectation from the community and your familiy is that a man lead spiritually and financially, it is devasting when he is not leading.
Now leading can be many things. For most women working is a given. I am noticing that Black men are not seeing this as a given. Ive noticed that they may feel odd about not having a job for a while but then somethings happens. The roles change. Now the women is making the ONLY money and still expected to be the more active parent in the home and children’s schools. What I do not see are men who are working from home or out of work busting their butts to volunteer in schools, pay the bills on time, make sure the kids are eating vegetables & reading, getting involved in the community or making looking for a job a part-time job.
What we hear and see are men, sitting around watching TV, on the internet (not looking for jobs mind you) and they are certainly not in the college classrooms.
In essence, the women that are married to these men are struggling to respect a person who is not motivated or empowered. Now, how unattractive is that. These women share how they become non interested in sex with their husbands and the idea of their men being passive and not taking control of their futures is very hurtful. Women want to make love to a man, not a child, they believe they have to cheer for so that he can take care of his family.
As Christians we don’t tools for these situations. Obviously, these men are out of the will of God, sitting on their butts. In church we are taught, that is a man doesn’t work he doesn’t eat, at the same time, women are to submit. Submit to what? His choice of cartoon? In marriage counseling it is clearly articulated that a man is expected to work and be a leader. When this doesn’t happen and the guy has been faithful and a decent dad, what are these women to do?
What do Christian women do when the men they love, who are Christians are not leading?
I like the part of divine balance. We are seeing a trend in more men though that have had good examples of are not being leaders. Do you think Black men are very fearful?
There are two reasons why a brother can’t lead. First, because he simply is not equipped to lead. But allow me to let you in on secret: some mothers don’t mother, some fathers don’t father, some teachers don’t teach and there are wives who have no clue of how to be a wive. So why is it a shift in the world when it is discovered that some brothers have no clue how to lead. As a sister move onto to the brother that can.
The second reason a brother can’t lead is because he has to dedicate too much of his energy wrestling with a helpmeet who behaves more like a hellmeet. Her view of the world is skewed and she brings her overweight Samonite luggage everywhere she goes making most folks (especially her husband) she comes in contact with apprehensive of even dealing with her.
Now Tiya starts her post off by writing, “Over the years I have heard wives express concern for their husband’s leadership skills.” That sentence got me to thinking – if a woman possesses these outstanding leadership skills, then what was it about her leadership skills that prevented her from identifying that the man she was about to marry lack leadership? Sounds like their leadership is quite as precise as they believed it to be.
Now there were several replies to the post talking about there should be no leader in a relationship – that’s absolute nonsense and will eventually lead to failure.
In reading the replies I’m curious as to how leadership is define; for me to be a LEADER is to be one who “SERVES,” and it through that service that a leader will pave the way to ensure the safety and produce the benefit for those whom that leader leads.
In my household I am the LEADER, THE HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD and IN CHARGE. None of this is because I’m the smartest or the biggest or the strongest, but because it is my God given responsibility to be the moral example by which my family is to live by. My authority as the HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD isn’t “absolute,” but delegated authority based on God’s Word. Note: most folks (men and woman) don’t want to serve, they want to be served.
As the leader of my household I recognize what my shortcomings are and where my wife’s strengths are, and “our” decisions are produced collectively based on that information – that’s what leaders do. They ascertain who can do what and then let them do what they do. Also understand that because I am the HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD doesn’t make me greater than my wife, it does mean that I go before her to ensure things will work out well for us.
Martin Luther King Jr., a leader because he served and he sacrificed. Harriet Tubman, a leader because she served and she sacrificed. Jesus Christ, the ultimate leader. Not because he was perfect, but because he served and sacrificed. In many marriages, in all ethnic groups, there are no leaders because neither man nor woman understand the spirit of serving and sacrificing.
http://www.ruleyourwife316.com
What I find intially interesting about this thread is the concern when women allow the man to lead. If the woman has to allow her man to lead isn’t she really leading herself and still is in control? Doesn’t it mean she has decided to allow him to think he is in control and leading? I also find it very interesting that many women are attracted to strong men who seem to lead well at the start of their relationship but that same quality becomes a turnoff later during the marriage. Or it cound be the reverse in that the man is so cooperative and agreeable in the beginning but that same attribute becomes undesirable later in the on-going marriage because the woman wants a man to change and step forward and take command. I have seen many times men just want to have “peace” at home without drama and chaos and will submit to anything that works with their woman and in the day and age where black women are testing the glass ceilings on their jobs and/or careers many husbands don’t care to bring that competition into the home and battle everyday with their mates. I am not so sure that today’s black women themselves are really ready for acepting today’s black man who is willing to be the “Alpha Male” in their respective family and forge his way as the leader in many respects. I think we must first conquer those ego issues between black men and women as a side bar for a true foundation in a healthy relationship as people before we tackle creating wholesome families. Let’s not assume that slavery and century old issues with us within the African Disapora has not handicapped us as a people thus preventing our moving forward on a whole host of social concerns. Should we be “fixing”the individuals first or should we be “fixing” the families those same disfunctional people bring to the table? Are we to assume the problem lie with black men being leaders or not? Could it possibly be the problem lies with black women first not accepting any kind of leadership from any black less than perfect?
Way too many hellmeet’s runnin around. Most hellmeet’s were created from the fallout of slavery & Jim Crow. Were black men were stripped of their role & ability to protect & provide for their wife & family. Sista’s had no choice but to step up and lead their families. This taught the future generations of daughters this same leadership or (now days power hungry) qualities. In addition, we got another dose of poison in the 70’s when brotha’s began to get better paying jobs. (factory jobs) A lot of brotha’s began to use this new cash to play with many different sista’s at the same time (players) while a lot of sista’s also began to vigorously go after other ladies men (husbands) with good jobs because they wanted someone elses piece of the pie. now it seems were stuck with mostly player’s (men) & control freaks (ladies) that keep messin up the lives & futures of those of us who have figured these things out & decided to try and break these B.S. cycles. For the few good sista’s & brotha’s I pray more of us can find each other!!!!! and leave these crazy people alone.
Cynthia, I absolutely love your comments. As you said earlier, marriages aren’t corporations, but “living, breathing organisms.” They are unique and not one size fits all. If we stop trying to make everything so black and white, then perhaps our marriages would last longer?
For me personally, I was raised WITHOUT a father, so I don’t understand why it is so hard for people to understand why I don’t immediately “submit” to something just because it has a penis. Further, we often talk about the Bible saying “wives submit to your husbands,” but most people never make it to the part that says “Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church.” Looking at those two statements side by side, that is saying that there IS NO LEADER, if you want to use the Bible as a guide. It’s a mutual respect. Christ put the church before himself. If a wife submits to a husband, she is putting him before her. Therefore, it’s demanding that both parties put the other first. I don’t understand why people get so caught up in titles…
Oh I agree on that. Women who are having kids and establishing relationships with no good men should be held accountable. But what if you have a great mate but he’s not agreat leader for you? You shouldn’t not be with him because of that. I have to stick with my point: all men aren’t leaders…
LOVE the article and all the feed back. Definitely taking notes
I disagree that “men are born to lead.” When children are born they are a blank slate. They know nothing about leading, following or even tying their shoes. What men receive as they grow up is socialization and training that TELLS THEM that women are lesser, weaker, dumber, less knowledgeable, less accomplished, less capable than men. Is it any wonder that women are abused and treated like crap by men so frequently?
Statements such as that undermine the confidence and achievements of women that feel they must always be a little bit less than a man in order to “get and keep a man.” It also teaches men chauvanism and sexism, neither of which is going to help the Black community raise itself up from the bottom of society in the United States.
What we must do as a people is redefine manhood for Black men. The belief they have that they need to be superior to women in order to be considered masculine/leaders is an erroneous belief and an egregious attack on the female gender. Manhood must be redefined quickly so that Black men can find another way to boost themselves up without putting women down.
It is my belief that most men (not just Black men) are not qualified to lead women or relationships anyway, which I discussed in this video posted on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0uXaOJbcdY
Deborrah, I don’t know you, but based on your comments, you are my psychological twin and highly intelligent!! Who is manhood defined by whether or not he is a leader? That is an obvious indication of his own esteem issues.
About to watch your video now…
finally. your comments make so much more sense than any article i’ve read relating to submission and relationship roles. I agree that we need to start viewing our relationships like friendships. No one is trying to control the other person or makes all the decisions. Sometimes the problem is that one spouse is trying to be a leader in everything and the other person a follower instead commiting to be partners in a marriage. I don’t think that because someone is born a male that he necessarily should be the leader in all decisions. it will vary depending on strenghts and weakness and a desire to fulfil that role. Also since when did our sex determine whether or not we would grow up to be a leader. Did we start telling our sons that they are born leaders and our daughters that they are born nurturers. I must’ve missed that one.
I think this is why most men don’t step up because of all this pressure men put on themselves to be “held accountable” for their entire family. How can one person be held accountable for another grown person. That to me just seems like to much pressure and a job I would not want to take on (almost like being president) 🙂
Speaking of leadership, What is interesting is that when President Obama had the opportunity to appoint seats to the Supreme court, both times he appointed women. That is quite telling for a man who was heavily influenced in his life by women. His mother, his grandmother, and his wife. He surrounded himself in his cabinet by powerful bright smart women. He is secure within himself and doesn’t feel he has to put women down in order for him to feel masculine. His inspiration and who he is today is because of a woman.
This is why I don’t understand men who insist that women ‘submit’ so they can be leaders. Most times when you see them on TV, they are giving props to ‘Mom’ because if it wasn’t mom they wouldn’t be where they are today. You hardly ever her pops get the ‘props’ like Mom does. So why is it men rely so heavily on women to ‘lift them up’ and help them attain and get where they need to go, then want to turn around and say ‘they are leaders and women need to submit because she isn’t capable of leading? That she needs to take a back seat so he can ‘Be the man he is meant to be? If this were true, why did he need to rely so heavily on women’s support. The saying ‘behnd every successful/good man stands a woman is true, however in 2010 women no longer have to ‘stand behind a man. She can achieve success in her own right.
It’s not that women could never be leaders, it’s that society has been set up in such a way that women were relegated to certain gender roles, and jobs and men had higher positions. However dig a little deeper and you’ll find that there was a woman who was right there helping him get ahead because ‘he could’ and she couldn’t because of society’s rules.
Ms. Cooper made an interesting point in that ‘socialization (not evolution) has ingrained how people behave and perceive things in society. This socialization starts from birth, when girls play with dolls and learn to cook, while boys play with puzzles and other toys aimed at giving them other skills. However I see a movement in that a lot of that is changing as women have more opportunities available to them that they didn’t even have 10 years ago.
I think they give mom props because moms support, motivate, encourage and have high expectations for their children. Which is also the role a wife can play. I think most people misunderstand the definition of leader as it relates to this article. I don’t mean that because the man leads his household that the wife is somewhat less. Absolutely not, that would be insane. A marriage is a partnership, both people in the marriage contribute to the success of the family. When I think about my husband leading our household, I expect him to protect us, stand up for us and yes steer those decisions that are best for our family.
Tiya, I was almost agreeing with you until you said he should steer the family decisions. I still don’t understand why. In order for a man to be a leader, he has to have followers who are, by default, on a lower rung of the ladder. I think men use this more as an ego thing then it actually being about them being true leaders. Yes, you may have a leader in your marriage (hey kenny lol) but I’m sure you know plenty of men who are not leaders. So it seems that being a leader for men is purely relative to them finding a woman who is physically or mentally inferior.
Great discussion!
There seems to be a misconception that having the man in the
leadership position means that there is not an equal partnership.
Ladies, your importance is not diminshed and your worth is not
lessened because you ALLOW your man to lead. If your man is submitted
to God, then who better to lead your family? Just because I’m leading
my family does not mean I do not require my wife’s leadership. In fact
I need it more as we navigate through life and make life changing
decisions.
But let me clear, if my family is unsuccessful that is on me and me
alone BUT as we are successful that is OUR victory. I understand that
in God’s eyes I am responsible and accountable to him for the success
of this family he has placed under my stewardship. He is not concerned
with what someone else (e.g., wife) may not have done…his focus will
be on what I did or did not do.
We are most certainly in a partnership (my wife and I) and in MANY
ways she is more important than I, but since I am ultimately
responsible in God’s eyes, I am by default the leader…and I do not
take this responsibility lightly.
Tiya: “I think they give mom props because moms support, motivate, encourage and have high expectations for their children. Which is also the role a wife can play.”
I thought this was something that both parents do, not just Mom or just pop. I think when we get past this rigid thinking of ‘roles’ in a relationship and think more of them as being teamwork, cooperation between everyone for the betterment of the relationship then we’ll see more happily married couples. Women are filing for divorce 75% of the time so at some point marital disatisfaction kicks in for many reasons too numerous to get into and also off topic.
We each choose how we run our relationships. I choose the model of my future in-laws that to me SHOWED what a successful partnership is like. Anyone can be married, but not everyone knows how to have a successful supportive partnership, this is what I want. I grew up under a dictatorship with a bible thumping pious father who quoted scripture but knew really nothing about making my mom happy. As I’ve said, my mother staunchly advocated for me to NOT have the type of marriage that she did. I’ve read a lot of negative comments from men calling women ‘hellmeets’ I’ve heard helpmeet thrown around quite a bit. Men are overly focused on what women ought to be doing to ‘help them’ but if you asked them what they do to make their relationship successful and their woman happy, most don’t have a definitive answer. But plenty of full of criticism. I think we should look within ourselves.
My fiance and I plan to have an equitable marriage, not a gender based marriage. We plan to complement each other, not get caught up in ‘well it’s your role and job to do this and that. I personally have seen to many unhappy women doing too much because mainly of society and biblical teachings of role playing. Nobody stops to think if this is practical or even if this works, they just quote scripture and run with it.
But relationships take temperature checks, if something isn’t working, both people need to reassess. One thing I’ve noticed is that black men are much more traditional minded/conservative and religious than nonblack men. I know this is probably why I didn’t end up with one. Having grown up in that type of environment, I was not happy and didn’t want to spend my life with a man who was like my father in that regard.
I wanted a forward thinking man who was secure within himself and who respected me enough as a woman with an intelligent mind who could hold her own. Who didn’t have to make me feel subservient in order for him to feel like the man.
I watched my father for years have my mother fix his plate of food and bring it to him. Not once did I see him return the favor even when she was sick. But yet he was steeped in Biblese and religion. Devout! Pious And well he’s deceased.
I don’t think a woman needs to ‘allow’ a man to do anything. I think both people will work together according to what they feel the relationship needs. I’d like a democratic marriage not a dictatorship. My fiance knows that I’m intelligent enough to make decisions, big or small regarding our lives just as he is and we each get a vote, and if we can’t agree, we compromise.
This is what we’re doing right now with our house hunting. Most times I’ve seen women give in to what the man wants because that’s expected of her, even if it isn’t really what she wants, she’s expected to ‘live with the decision’ he makes. I don’t want a marriage like that.
Thanks for the discussion, very interesting thread, all the best to everyone.
Cynthia,
I thank you for your comments. They have added to this great discussion. I really enjoy reading the different perspectives and sometimes we all just have to agree to disagree. We all have different ways of getting to the same goals and that’s fine as long as we are creating healthy marriages.
Cynthia you are absolutely right 2/3 of the divorce initiated in America are initiated by women and surprisely most of the husbands never see the divorce coming. But understand those divorces are comprised of all ethnic groups and many wives who practice no religion.
Cynthia you are absolutely right – run your relationship how you and your fiance choose and model it after whatever you believe that works or will work for you.
Now with that said:
because your father poorly (your description based on what you wrote) modeled what is was to be a Godly husband, don’t be disappointed in what it means to be a Godly husband and live accordingly to what is required of a Godly husband. “I grew up under a dictatorship with a bible thumping pious father who quoted scripture but knew nothing about making my mom happy,” you said. Well your statement explains it. He quoted scripture, he didn’t understand scripture because a man understanding scripture understand that dictating is a spirit that does not exist in the bible.
You said you watched your father for years have your mother fix his plate and bring it to him, but you never saw that of him. Again, allow me to point out that your father didn’t understand nor live by the spirit of scripture (take a moment read John 13:4-17 to find our what the spirit of a true leader is). You said your father was steeped in Biblese and religion, and I submit to you he was not. He was steeped into him and he used the bible as he weapon to secure what he wanted and trust me he had to answer for it.
The bible clearly states that marriage is not gender based, but equitable based, that why the word says “I will make a helper meet (suitable, adapted, complementary) for him [amplified version].
Now I believe I was the initial brother who used the term hellmeet. As a certified marriage educator my wife and I often see hellmeets come into our classes or sit in our office. Rarely do we ever have to tell these wives they are hellmeet. Over the duration of the class they arrive at their conclusion or confess their revelation with no provocation from either my wife or I. Most often these hellmeets become hellmeets because they had no example of what a good man was. Subsequently, those who had good men couldn’t recognize that they had one and subsequently carried their Samonite into the relationship making it damn near impossible to deal with. These are not my opinions, but actually cases I’ve dealth me. But let me be clear, in me talking about hellmeet, by no means am I exorating husbands who also come to see us with poor skill sets.
In closing, I say this with love. You consistently point toward you having a non-black man. Sister I am the first one to stand on a mountain and yell to a sister to love who loves you – period, but as I pointed out earlier those women initiating divorce preceeding ain’t all black and they’re not all coming from religions where they are made to feel subservient.
I wish you the best in your marriage and I hope that throughout your vow of “til death do us part” that you will consistently make an investment in your marriage by being connected to continuing marriage education.
Peace B un2 U!
http://www.ruleyourwife316.com
Hi Reginald
Thank you for your comments. I never gave a specific demographics on the number of women filing for divorce. I do realize that divorce cross all socioeconomic/racial boundaries. I’m fully aware of that. I only mentioned the one commonality in that it’s the women regardless of race/class/religion that file for divorce in much greater numbers, so at some point women become disatisfied with their marriages and that needs to be explored.
What is a certified marriage educator? (I’ve never heard of this before). What does it take for one to get this title?
“Hellmeets’. What is the equivalent term for the men? Are they called hellmeets too? Why is that only for the women, but the men is described simply as ‘having poor skill sets’. That seems like a mild statement whereas with the woman, ‘hellmeet seems to come down overly harsh and condemning.
I’m not religious or a christian so quoting scripture is really meaningless to me. I practice Chakra derrived from Hinduism. (My maternal grandfather was West Indian) I spent time in Guyana as a teen and I grew to like this spiritual practice that teaches self awareness and empowerment). However my mother was converted to christianity and subsequently married a christian but she was not happy with that.
I did grow up learning the Biblical scripture and christianity but found it was not right for me and as a teenager after I spent time with my grandfather I begin practicing chakra so while I’m very familiar with christian scripture, I don’t live my life based on those teachings.
I think when we talk about relationships or things, people assume everyone is of the same religion and they speak to them according to ‘their beliefs’. However we are not all of one belief therefore we can’t assume. I would prefer not to bring religion into it and speak from a standpoint of interpersonal relationships and how people are without quoting scripture.
I don’t push my beliefs or teachings off on others because I don’t want to arrogantly assume that they follow my practices. However I do know that people can make intelligent decisions about how to be as an adult without bringing religion into it.
Tiya: Yes the point is to have a healthy marriage. However in growing up, I saw a lot of women, not just my mother but women of other christian men who believed in submission and leadership have wives who were more ‘unhappy’ than happy with their marriages. They would get together each week at one another’s homes to ‘vent while we kids were playing in the other room. I was nosy and sometimes I would listen in. I grew up with the ‘women are seen and not heard, spare the rod spoil the child, and all of those types of biblese talk and pastors, giving sermons that somehow came off as fire and brimstone and sometimes scary and negative.
I knew as a child, that christianity wasn’t for me. God is a spirit and is everywhere. Chrisitans don’t have exclusive access to God. but back to marriage, I think this is a great discussion, because we do want people to have a healthy marriage and talking about it, sharing ideas even if we don’t agree (and who says we have to as we all come into this discussion with our own frame of references), but providing food for thought is a good thing.
I learned a long time ago not to ‘accept the status quo just because everyone believed things were a certain way doesn’t make it right for me. I was never a sheep to blindly follow without questioning the teachings’. If it didn’t feel right to my spirit, even as a child I knew it wasn’t right for me.
But I wish all of us a healthy marriage and for us to take care of the other person in our marriages. This care includes (not just material support), roof over the head, bills paid etc…, but more importantly emotional support, emotional connections, This is something, a lot of women have found that men fall short of in this area. This is what causes a lot of distance in marriages and you hear that ‘people grow apart. Often marriages fall into a routine and nobody does a temperature check from time to time.
People get so caught up in job child raising etc.. they forget to ‘reach out and love each other. I grew up witnessing men (not just my father) but men who do very little in the actual day to day running of the household. Women were expected to do most of it. homework, cooking, cleaning, birthday parties, car pooling, PTA meetings, teacher parent conferences. The father looked to the mother to take the lead in all of that while ‘he helped out on occasion.
After a while that would get draining for the mother, she couldn’t depend of the man to be there because he was a detached father who relied solely on the mother to take the lead in the most important aspect of family and he couldn’t step in and step up.
There are interesting books that talk about this. Wifework: Susan Maushart, and the Second Shift (I forget the author’s name).
Women need men to be active in the home, and not just work and come home. My future in laws marriage was like that. The father had his hand in everything the mother did. My fiance will do the same.
Traditional minded religious men seem to be stuck in ‘that’s woman’s work so she does it all, but come to him on ‘big decisions. which relegates her to ‘servant and him to master. She does all the ‘many tasks and he sits back. I don’t want a marriage like that. Nor do I want a marriage steeped in christian and biblese.
But as you said Tiya creating a healthy marriage is what’s important, and that should be what’ healthy for both partners including children if there are any.
Sorry for the long post, going house hunting again this weekend. Thank you for this discussion
As if I didn’t type enough, I think in comments, people are being confusing in how they talk about leadership as it relates to relationships/marriage. Leadership implies, head of something influencing and directing others, having authority over. Partnership implies cooperating, compromise and working together, there is a collective decision. Perhaps using the word ‘leadership as it relates to marriages/personal relationships doesnt quite fit.
In most people’s comments about the word ‘leadership’ as it relates to a relationship, no one has described their situation as a true leadership (if you look at the dictionary definition of this word). What people have described resembles more of a partnership or a coach and a team. In other words, the term ‘leadership has merely become a ‘figurehead word’. So why are we so stuck on this word and staunchly holding onto using this word to describe how relationships are run when clearly what was described in a particular situation does not fit the true definition of the word?
People have all kinds of connotations they have attached to the word ‘leader/leadership and none of it actually fits the known definition of the word. I think this is where the confusion lies. Nobody is going by the book definition of what the word means, rather they are going by what they ‘believe the word means as it fits their situation, then they are trying to project ‘that belief onto others. Most of this belief is based on religion and socialization instead of the textbook webster definition of the word. Or it could be combination of both with some religion and some textbook definition. But there will never be a commonality as long as everyone uses their ‘beliefs of what the word means. Im not saying people have to agree. My point is that no one person is going to be right about what a leader means in relationships because people have different beliefs and theyre entitled to that.,
Just look at the different interpretations of this word, many of which seem conflicting or oxymoronic and totally changing the meaning of the word entirely.
“There seems to be a misconception that having the man in the
leadership position means that there is not an equal partnership.”
“Marriage is a partnership”
“The mark of a good leader is that no one on the team…”
(leaders don’t have ‘teams’ they have followers)
LEADER is to be one who “SERVES,”
“Leadership doesnt mean only one person is in charge
“God’s original plan was for men to be leaders, and women were to be the leaders support system”
Interesting quote from a previous poster’s comments. If the woman is the leader’s support system, where does she get her support from?
Why wouldn’t the husband support his wife?
What does leadership/submission look like in my home……
Well it starts at about 5:00 in the morning when I rise to head to the Gym. I believe you should be “Fit†to lead. As we approach the winter months added to my workout would be clearing the driveway of snow and Ice. If its not a snow day I take the little ones to school, my wife gets them ready and feed. If its a snow day I get to kiss and say goodbye to three sleeping kids and a beautiful wife still snug in their warm beds as I head out in the cold on icy treacherous roads clear across the county to work. You see, my being a leader means that Im essentially a servant. As a man, I dont have the option to lie in bed and not go to work. Society does not give me that option, not yet anyway.
My career pays well, so my wife has the option to stay home. Shes a woman and that is an option for women if finances permit. Rarely is this an option for men no matter how well employed their wives may be.
It is my job to make certain the Mortgage is paid, my wifes car note (she and the kids dive the new vehicle – I drive the humpty,) the insurances, the medical bills, the dental bills, the heating and electric bills, the water bills, and the property taxes. When the plumbing breaks I must fix it. If the water heater goes out I must have it repaired. When the roof needed to be replaced, I had to have it done. When the fireplace and chimney needs cleaning, I contract for it. When the furnace needs tuning up I contract for it. When the lawn, trees and shrubs need maintenance, pruning, cutting, fertilizing……I do it.
In the spring when new annuals need to be planted, I do it because I know who much my wife loves flower. When autumn rolls around and the trees shed their foliage, I have to clear the lot and clean the gutters. And we have a LOT of trees. When the cold air chases critters into our house, I set the traps and release them safely back into the wild.
I work outside of the home and deal with all the madness so that my wife can remain safe, secure and protected in our comfy home in the middle of our very affluent community. I do it so that my children can attend great schools. It brings me a lot of pride to be able to provide at the level I provide. When I see young women pushing baby carriages around the fancy coffee houses and malls eating lunch together while their men are making paper, I smile because I know my wife is in that same number. To provide and provide well is part of my leadership style.
When the work day is done my job does not end. Wednesdays is daddy night. Thats when I relieve my wife of her domestic duties and the house and I do everything from mowing the lawn to washing and folding clothes. I have dinner in the oven and on the table. I help a 1st grader and a 3rd grader with their homework and chase a toddler around the house. I change diapers, mop floors, clean toilets and showers, wash and fold clothes. Thursday s is game night so I order takeout so my wife doesnt have to cook. Saturday is date night so we go out to eat and Sunday s I am just as likely to come home after church and lay out a big spread as the wife, especially if its warm out and I fire up the grill. Friday is daddys day to do whatever.
I have attended ever parent teacher meeting for both of my school age children. I volunteer for the PTO, of which my wife is an active member. I have co-hosted every single birthday party for my children and my presence has always been known. My wife is a Girl Scout brownie leader and I am a Cub Scout den leader..I have a little tiger. I peddle cookies and popcorn alike. Some days I take my children out in the morning and my wife dont see us again until bedtime. When we get home I bath them, brush their teeth, put on their night-nights and read bed time stories. I have sat in hospital emergency rooms with just me and a sick child. I have nursed a sick wife and three sick children at one time. I do this because thats my job as the leader in my home.
I love talking with my wife we are best friends. I realize that most days she is at home along with the little one and she needs her emotional needs meet. Thats why I learned to give a good message. I know how to light candles. I know how to draw a warm bath. I know how to put some soft jazz on, I know how to make a bed inviting and I get up at 5:00 in the morning and put my body thru pure hell so that my wife can melt in arms of steel.
This is leadership to me. This is my role. This is how I roll and I make no apologies for it!
And yes we are both Black and Married with Children!
Trex
Thank you for your post. For providing a glimpse into your day to day life. If my mother had had a so called christian man like you appear to be she would have been happier. As would many of her friends.
I’m don’t get this comment though:
“What does leadership/submission look like in my home……”
What you describe to me is what a man is supposed to do in order to take care of his family. I don’t see that as leadership/submission. I see this as a responsible man and a responsible woman working together for the good of their family. I don’t get how that leadership/submission title fits that.
I think this is where black men who are more religious and conservative than nonblack men seem to differ. They have to give religious connotations and titles to everyday regular tasks that adults are supposed to do. My fiance and I don’t see that as submitting and leader, that’s cooperating and working together.
My future in-laws both continue to work outside of the home. Both are professors, and both worked together for the good of their family and both did what they had to do. Neither of them used the title/phrase/idealogy/mindset or whatever you call it that someone was a leader and someone was submitting. I think black people are caught up in that biblese talk.
Still I appreciate your breaking down your day to day lives to SHOW what a successful marriage looks like and how two people work together supporting each other financially emotionally and in all the ways that matter. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and you painted a very wonderful positive picture with your words.
People can use this as a guide to what a man can do day to day to support his wife. Sadly, all too often your type of man TREX (like your moniker) is nearly extinct.
Tiya wrote: ‘Why wouldnt the husband support his wife?
Tiya: That is the billion dollar question. The way its stated according to one poster’s opinion, is that he thinks ‘God said the woman does the supporting for the leader and thats it.
“God’s original plan was for men to be leaders, and women were to be the leaders support system”
Nothing is said about the leader supporting the woman. You assume it works that way, but it isnt stated according to this poster. Men could just as easily assume it only works ‘one way to his receiving the support while not giving her support. Plenty of marriages are run that way. This is why using statements like this can be dangerous. They are open to interpretation and sometimes not always for the good of both people in the relationship.
See the problem is some of you dont want to look beyond your frame of reference and address when this ‘leadership submission mindset isnt healthy. You just want to use your lives and marriages as examples of how you interpret these words and make them work for you. And you assume because you make it work in your household, everyone else interprets these words leadership and submission the exact same way you do and run their household the same as you do.
Words are powerful and ego tripping, all this talk about Leadership and submission sounds like one big ego trip for the men, and women buy into it. Leadership and submission carries the connotation of I am in charge and you follow me. These words in the wrong ‘mind and family environment can be detrimental. These words need to stop being used in a relationship/marital context. Thats the point many of you are missing. They are open to interpretation and can carry built in negative connotations. You all are caught up on trying change the meaning of the words according to how you ‘interpret it in your household, when the words themselves shouldnt even be used. That alone should be a big clue that these are the wrong words to use to define a marriage and a relationship. If you have to ‘change’ the meaning of the word through intepretation, perhaps that means you’re using the wrong words to describe how your marriages work.
Trex: Re: Your post, “What does leadership/submission look like in my home”
Half the things you mentioned that you do, you would do those things whether you were married or not. Working out, making necessary home repairs, getting a job and getting paid, paying bills and taxes, shoveling the snow from the driveway, maintaining your lawn and yard, cleaning your home, doing laundry. Thats not for HER and its not leadership either. You most likely did these things before you got married, if your wife left you, you would most likely continue to do these things. Sooner or later, married or not, you would probably be a home owner and with that comes all of the tasks of home-ownership regardless of your marital state.
You are doing these to fit in society like a normal man would. You would (or should) work out for your own health whether married or not. If there was snow on the ground in your driveway, you would get up to shovel it so you could drive to work, regardless of your marital state, if your home needed repairs, you live in it and so you would repair your own home . I mean really, no one wants to live in a run down home. So I don’t see anything you’ve named to demonstrate leadership or submission. Youre simply doing what youre supposed to be doing. The fact that you’re married and have kids, means that they benefit from what you’ve been doing all along.
So you take over the kids a few times per week. GOOD! Theyre your kids just as much as theyre hers and you should. Youre their father. Thats wise to do. If you ended up a single dad youd be doing that 24 hours straight every weekend!! So you best keep your woman happy so your life can run smoothly.
Dont get me wrong, its good that you do what you do. But you seem to think what you do is extraordinary and warrants an extraordinary title such as leadership. What you do is simply the ‘norm not the exception. But I think the state of black men is so substandard when it comes to marriage and family, that they think doing the normal everyday task for their families, warrants exceptional attention and a title. (Again ego tripping)
Women give men too much credit when they do what they should be doing anyway and they dont give them enough hell when they slack off.
MLK was a leader, Ghandi was a Leader, Pres. Obama is a Leader (these are all extraordinary men doing extraordinary things). A man holding down a job, paying his bill and taking care of his family is a ‘responsible man doing what is expected of him by society nothing more, nothing less.
Parenting children is not leadership? I agree about “celebrating” people who do what they are supposed to do. I don’t look for a pat on the back for taking care of the children I fathered. However, child rearing is indeed leadership. Most productive members of society are that way because of the example their parents set for them. MLK was a leader because of the leadership his parent provided for him.
If parents, and fathers specifically, were not leaders there would be no impact by the lack of their absence in our communities. Basically not having dads around would be no big deal. After all, the majority of black children are getting their three square meals a day plus room and board. However it is clear there is a huge problem with our kids. They are lacking something. That something is fathers. Surely a (productive) man’s presence is more than just him filling a generic gap. Looking at the breakdown of our families and communities I think the leadership of fathers is more important than you are giving it credit for.
Miko, your comment “woman without a man in her life is left without a shield” struck me, because that exactly what happens. Although, your eloquent statement was used to prove the opposite point, you hit the nail on the head.
Most women without a man will find a shield, whether it is in someone else’s man, their “platonic friend”, or not-so “platonic friend”, father, priest, or whoever they can use without true commitment. And that shield may change color, texture or style every hour, day, week, month, or year. . .
. . . and on the flip side, Most men will eventually find someone they can save or be a shield to and if it is not their wife, it will be a single lady looking for a shield . . . which in most cases lead to divorce.
But most importantly, the male child needs positive role models of a leader in their own house. They should not see a hen pecked man as a father, as it hurts his own self esteem and masculinity. . . and continues the cycle.
Miko, your comment “woman without a man in her life is left without a shield” struck me, because that exactly what happens. Although, your eloquent statement was used to prove the opposite point, you hit the nail on the head.
Most women without a man will find a shield, whether it is in someone else’s man, their “platonic friend”, or not-so “platonic friend”, father, priest, or whoever they can use without true commitment. And that shield may change color, texture or style every hour, day, week, month, or year. . .
. . . and on the flip side, Most men will eventually find someone they can save or be a shield to and if it is not their wife, it will be a single lady looking for a shield . . . which in most cases lead to divorce.
But most importantly, the male child needs positive role models of a leader in their own house. They should not see a hen pecked man as a father, as it hurts his own self esteem and masculinity. . . and continues the cycle.
Miko, I have really been enjoying your feedback. It has been a great conversation. All I can say is, it really works for our family. And “steer” the decisions doesn’t mean I don’t get what I want nor does it make me physically (well yeah physically lol) but definitely not mentally inferior. His steering doesn’t have to take anything away from me. In fact the majority of his steering comes from guidance for me. I don’t know why it seems to be either all or nothing with many of these comments. If the husband heads his household the wife is inferior, not at all. I do lean on him and have expectations of him, just as he has of me. I am his equal, his partner in life and the plans we have for our family are discussed amongst the two of us. But my children know that daddy protects the family, like the king of the jungle. It works for us and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
say that ish girl!! LOVE IT!!!